And did you see last night on the news they boycotted the social security office in Milwaukee because they didn't want the social security office to do their job & notify the employer that the social security number they are offering is a duplicate and for the employer to now question that???
Furthurmore, they said the social security office was infringing on their (illegel immigrants) rights!!!!!

So, in other words they are saying to social security, DON'T DO YOUR JOB!!!

I'm curious - what does Mexico being an oil producing nation have to do with illegal immigration ?

Responding to MauriceH

Mexico has significant oil wealth that is not being used effectively for "it's citizens'. If it was, millions of Mexican citizens would not be crossing the border illegally to come to the United States.

It stands to reason that the U.S. taxpayer is not responsible to pay to support Mexican citizens living illegally in the United States, as a result of the Mexican Government not using its oil revenue fortune to benefit its citizens.

KimiK, Social Security isa pyramid scheme. The number of retirees will soon rise much faster than the number of contributing workers (unless we recruit some H1B/J1 or Green Card workers who generally contribute without the right to withdraw) If more Americans understood how to boycott this government mandated monopolistic ponzi scheme (without moving to Mexico or elsewhere), a boycott might be an excellent way of forcing Congress and the President to do something about a huge problem they've ignored for a generation.

Who says we can't learn new ideas from these newcomers?

You can not control illegal immigration without first controlling the boarders.

You don't put an alarm system in a structure that has no way to secure its openings.

You don't bring a car in for a tune-up when it has no brakes.

You don't train a dog in an open field with no way of containing it.


Our illegal Mexican immigration problem is a good thing for Mexico, as large percent if their GNP and economy is based on US Dollars being sent back to Mexico from immigrants, legal and not, working here in the states. Mexico has no way of recouping that money if it were to cease

Don't forget about our boarder to the North, it is as porous as a sieve!

Does the U.S. use its oil wealth effectively for its citizens ?

Personal Rights = Personal Responsibility: you make some excellent points: The border issue actually falls within a number of dimensions, such as national securtity and economic harm to the United States. Given that, the difference bettwen the Mexican and Canadian borders from an national security standppont [as you very nicely present} is THE SAME. The significant difference between the two borders then lies in the amount of economic harm that one "sieve" border can cause to the United States versus the other. My poistion in this writing is focused upon the economic damage that the millions of illegal Mexicans are causing toi our country versus the economic damge cause by the "hundred or so Canadians".

It is without question, however, that both borders from a National Security standpoit are equally mismanaged by our Government, and our safty may be at stake if this "border control dimension" is not dramatically improved.

In the meantime, the US Citizens are being preyed upon by the citizens of an "oil rich" nation to pay their way while they live illegally in the United States.

What do you think?

Yes, Maurice, but if democrats get their way, they'll 'use it' even more by confiscating oil company profits and oil companies will find new ways to keep their profits off shore.

TO MauriceH: Only you can answer for yourself whether the wealth of the United States is used effectively for its citizens?

Thanks for the getting involved in this very difficult discussion.

TO ALL...I DO APOLOGIZE FOR ALL OF MY TYPOS IN MY REPLIES.

Censored wrote:Our illegal Mexican immigration problem is a good thing for Mexico, as large percent if their GNP and economy is based on US Dollars being sent back to Mexico from immigrant

The illegal immigration problem is also a good thing for certain vested interests in the U.S. The construction and agri-business industry has grown dependent on illegal immigrants as well as elder-care and day care. Lately our GNP has been dominated by government and real-estate sectors as companies outsource more of what once were our core industries.

I'm not in favor of illegal immigrants but I believe the amount of attention focused on this is disturbing considering that far more significant problems are being completely ignored. I'll try to blog about those soon.

In the meantime, I'd really like to know how one goes about boycotting Social Security. After all, if my insurance agent or investment adviser gambled my premiums at the horse track or spent it on booze , I'd boycott him too.

So - you want Mexico's government to use oil profits to establish a system to help its citizens and not make them want to leave for the U.S. ?
But, you do NOT want the U.S. government to tax its oil companies to provide ways to help its citizens ?

An interesting paradox in thought I think.

Also - I love this line from the blog : "Send the 14 million illegal immigrants back home". Now thats a reasonable thought. That won't cost anything to do -right ?

I want to know how they get public assistance if they don't have a social security card? To be sure with the technology we have today, the system should be able to accurately verify that the social security cards they are using are fraudulantly obtained. How many thousands of social security numbers are deleted from the system each day after someone passes away?

To TinainNC: Here is a published report that answers your question about how Illegal Immigrants can LEGALLY obtain social seciurity and Medicare benefits at taxpayer expense. I wonder if Mexico offers this type of program to support Americans legally or illegally living in Mexico?

Illegal Aliens Eligible for Social Security Benefits
Thursday, February 20, 2003

By Matt Hayes

E-MAIL STORY RESPOND TO EDITOR PRINTER FRIENDLY VERSION
Annie was an ethnic Chinese born in Malaysia who had legally emigrated to the U.S. decades ago. She entered my law office with her mother, who clutched a well-worn copy of a Chinese language book called What You Need to Know About Life in America that is eventually encountered by most immigration lawyers.

Annie knew her mother had no legal basis to remain in the U.S. She had overstayed her tourist visa and had never applied for any type of immigration benefit beyond that, though she had managed to remain for years, working off the books and going undetected by the INS.

Annie had brought her mother to my office not for an immigration matter, but for retirement planning. She had one question, "What do I have to do to qualify her for SSI?"

SSI, or Supplemental Security Income, is a federal cash benefit program for persons 65 or older, or those who are blind or have a disability. SSI payments are generally unavailable to most people already receiving Social Security benefits, though an individual may be able to receive both if combined household income and resources fall within the SSI limits. Besides cash payments, persons who are eligible for SSI are automatically eligible for most state-administered Medicaid programs.

(Story continues below)

Advertise Here
Advertisements
RelatedColumn Archive
Full-page Behind the Bar ArchiveSSI is funded through the payroll taxes of Americans. But you don't have to be an American to receive SSI payments. Like food stamps, Medicaid and almost every other form of social insurance that America has developed to help its citizens, SSI is targeted by people from other countries as a tool to materially improve their lives without work.

The 1996 Welfare Reform Act may have erected barriers to a non-citizen's eligibility for SSI, but it did not come close to ending it. The very group Congress sought to make ineligible for SSI, people who may have entered the U.S. illegally but through a series of happy accidents permanently reside here under color of law ("PRUCOL" aliens), has been able to hold on to SSI eligibility through a combination of lawyering and lobbying.

What You Need to Know About Life in America was first published in Taiwan in the late 1980s. It provided readers with a step-by-step guide on how to come to the U.S. and apply for public assistance, including SSI. It figured prominently in the debate that led up to the 1996 Welfare Reform Act, and most thought that the book, and what it stood for, would go away with the act's restrictions on public assistance for non-citizens.

The book, however, is still around, frequently in photocopied form, and has been edited to reflect the new realities of public assistance for non-citizens. Like its readers, What You Need to Know About Life in America hasn't gone away; it has just changed its tactics.

"PRUCOL" aliens are people who have either entered the U.S. illegally or who have overstayed their visa, but who the INS has decided not to remove from the U.S. One may wonder how it is possible for the INS to know that an alien is in the U.S. illegally and make an affirmative decision to not remove that person, but built into the Immigration and Nationality Act is an "escape hatch" that permits any immigration judge to indefinitely withhold an order of removal for any alien whose removal from the U.S. would create great hardship. Though that person will probably never have legal immigration status, he is entitled to several forms of public assistance.

But PRUCOL aliens are not nearly the major threat to social security. The Bush administration has reportedly completed a draft of a treaty between the U.S. and Mexico that will give the Mexican government at least $345 billion in Social Security payments for Mexicans who have worked in the U.S. legally and illegally. The treaty, which is unique in that it provides a foreign government Social Security money even for those of its citizens who have worked illegally in America, may be timed to coincide with the 2004 elections.

If the draft treaty becomes law, it will dismantle the chief provision of the 1996 Welfare Reform Act, a law which has saved U.S. taxpayers $72 billion since inception, because it will give Social Security payments to illegal aliens and legal aliens who have not paid into our payroll tax system for the requisite 10 years.

There are other assaults to Social Security. For years, local Social Security offices have issued Social Security cards to illegal aliens if one was requested in connection with an application for a state driver's license. Social Security Administration employees and supervisors, like Yolanda Vargas in Texas and Andrea Turner in New Jersey, have been caught selling Social Security cards to illegal aliens, who use them later in life to apply for benefits.

Most federal agencies regard a person whose immediate relative has just petitioned her into the country as a PRUCOL alien, and therefore someone potentially eligible for public assistance. So it was that Annie filed a petition for her mother, who had never paid taxes. She was paroled into the U.S., stopped working and started receiving her check about 14 months later.

Matt Hayes began practicing immigration law shortly after graduating from Pace University School of Law in 1994, representing new immigrants in civil and criminal matters. He teaches at Berkeley College, and is author of The New Immigration Law and Practice, a textbook to be published by West Legal Publications in October, 2003.

Respond to the Writer

FOE!

Parivrajaka,
Illegals are hardly protesting Social Security, because it is a pyramid scheme.

To anyone who defends illegal aliens from Mexico, here is an interesting fact. Mexico jails all illegal immigrants from Cuba sometimes for months at a time without representation. Kind of hypocritical don't you think?

I wonder how I would be treated if I went down to Mexico City, and protested the Mexican government while waving the American flag. How long do you think I would last on the street before someone tried to stop me?

Foe

TinainNC - "I want to know how they get public assistance if they don't have a social security card?"

I used to work for an agriculture company that employed a good number of Mexican labor (it's very difficult to find US Citizens to do ag work these days). Apparently, you can buy a Resident Alien Card and a SS card in Chicago for around $50. They look pretty authentic too. We couldn't risk losing 1/2 our work force to an INS raid, so we started paying a service to bring us laborers from Mexico with real papers. This is very expensive. We also had to pay for transportation here and provide them with housing.

Many gov. offices cannot ask if they are US Citizens or not. Many times I've been to the doctor and there are signs that say "You cannot be denied medical care, even if you cannot pay." Guess who pays?

"To be sure with the technology we have today, the system should be able to accurately verify that the social security cards they are using are fraudulantly obtained."

SS is getting better at cross referencing their info with immigration. But the average person hiring a new laborer can't tell if their papers are real or fake. So, the illegal works as long as they can.

"How many thousands of social security numbers are deleted from the system each day after someone passes away?"

I don't believe they are deleted immediately. I believe a person has to be deceased for X amount of years. Besides, they don't need new numbers. Most fake papers include stolen SS#'s. The SS office informed us on a number of occasions that Jose was really Susie from Kentucky.

The reason why our government won't enforce illegal immigration laws is due to one number; 1.1 trillion dollars. That's the amount of money Hispanics, legal and illegal are expected to spend in the USA next year. Our goverment and businesses aren't going to give up that much money just to try to send a whole lot of people back to Mexico. All of the menial jobs they're doing for companies now, in a few years they'll start their own companies we'll coming to them for jobs. Look at Miami, decades ago it was a retiree's haven. Who would have thought. Learn Spanish folks because we're being colonized!

Hispanics are not the only ones here and should not be!!!!!

I have no problem with Mexico. Now Mexicans, that is a different story. JUST KIDDING! Don't jump down my throat, yet.

Now I have a BIG problem with illegal aliens. But the problem is one we could have fixed years ago. The borders need to be secured and a big a$$ wall needs to be built. If the US really wanted to keep illegal aliens out of the country, they would have done it already.

That being said, I can't blame illegals for coming over the border. I would do it. They live in hell and you want to fault them for finding a better life for themselves? Na, it's our own fault.

Also, illegals (and a lot of hispanics) need to at least make an effort to speak English. It is absurd how many signs are in English and Spanish. How many times do have to press 1 for English and 2 for Spanish? I hate that. If you want to live in Ameica, speak the language. You don't have to give up your culture completely, but we shouldn't have to bend over backwards because you don't speaka!

As for the oil? The rich will get richer. That is the American way. And if your looking for help from Washington, think again. They are only interested in lining their own pockets. They are all liars! If you don't like it, you could always sneak into Mexico.

I should be President. THE LAND OF HEAD SHOT! I know Maurice would love that. Don't worry Maurice, I would give you a job at the White House. You could clean the presidental urinal. HA HA.

We must secure our borders and enforce returning illegals back to their home country, regardless of how many years they've lived in the US or how many children they have born in the US or how connected they are within the community they live in. They came illegally, and as such, they must be sent back...no exceptions.

With that said, I have vacationed in Mexico many times and the Mexican people are friendly, hard working, and kind. It saddens me to see how many of them live, while working at luxurious resorts that cater to foreigners. They make next to nothing while we, kick back and allow them to serve our every need, without even giving them the courtesy of a thank you or better yet a tip. I have watched with disgust many Americans behaving unbelievably rudely and demanding every bit of pampering.

This world is a mess. The Mexican government needs to take care of their own people, and we need to stop being so rude and demanding when vacationing in their country.

To LifelongResidentRacine:

You are absolutely correct, that being unnecessarily rude to another is just wrong.

I say put the mexicans that dont belong here in forced labor camps. then ship them back to mexico barely able to walk. i also say shoot them as they cross the border.

to the previous commentor.
Do you know the mexicans that dont belong here ARE on labor camps. Where do you think your cabbage and corn come from? From the Sturtevant union grove farmers that can not get a white person or african american person to work a full day let alone a whole season. Who do you think cleans the nice hotels you stay at on vacations or business trips? The majority of mexicans that are here illegal get the crappiest job possible because the white american thinks it is beneath them to do those sort of jobs. Truely think about it.

To Bill: Would you really want to shoot and kill them as they try to cross the border, or send them back to Mexico barely able to walk? I certainly hope not.

Would you want to pressure and strangle the oil-rich government of Mexico to take responsibility for THEIR CITIZENS, i WOULD CERTAINLY HOPE SO.

Wow, I began skimming the blog here thinking I would totally disagree with solutions4health again and instead I find myself partly agreeing.

Mexico has a big wealth divide, Mexico City has a few Billionaires. Alot of Latin America has this problem and it leads to alot of other problems in Latin American nations and their societies.

Maybe it should also worry folks when they notice the wealth gap is growing in the USA.

I like that Mexico (and other nations) is(are) sending immigrants to the US as the larger labor force means our nation can do more things. Generally a good thing for the USA.

I think that illegal people whose only crime (not drug runners, gang members, and so on) is being here should be made legal. This would mean these workers would have to compete in the open where companies would have a harder time using them to undercut other workers (a worker with no rights is willing or forced to take less pay than a worker with them, this lets those who hire them undercut legal workers).

Alot of these people are "illegals" because immigration laws are currently somewhat dysfunctional. I think it creates disrespect for a law when it is written unreasonably-this is one example.

If we wanted to boot all the illegals out it would require making a massive (and expensive) organization that may be forced to use facist like tactics in order to do its job-which is going after men, women, and children that usually haven't hurt anyone. Not the type of thing that should be created lightly.

Besides a large wealth gap Mexico has other problems. It has to compete with China in the market of cheap labor. NAFTA hurt Mexican farmers who didn't recieve the security of government subsidies that their new competitors to the north have. Lastly, Mexico has corruption problems worse than the US-it has sometimes tried to change (and good luck to it each time it does), but this has been a long running problem.

To whoever wrote that blog: F.T.P.

I don't mind the idea of taxing oil companies. Alot of them have been making enough profits that they aren't likely to be hurt by the taxes either (unless there is some sort of ticking time bomb within oil companies).

We also do a better job than Mexico (and alot of oil holding nations) of dealing with money from oil. Look at Alaska where the government gets a decent amount of money from the oil pumped up there and every Alaskan also recieves a check that is that person share of the profits from the resources in the state they live in.

This is alot better than corrupt Nigerian officials who take oil funds (collected via taxes) and use them to build personal villas in France rather than putting the money towards projects that benefit average citizens. Yes, this is a case of large scale embezzlement of government funds and a lack of distributing wealth to the population as a whole.

FOE!!!

These days I lean towards friend.

You do realize that oil companies offer a commodity that is necessary to keep the rest of us going. If you special tax them, they will simply raise their prices (to cover the additional expense) which we have no choice but to pay.

So, increasing their taxes would result in nothing more than increasing what it costs average Joe Citizen's to heat his home or drive his car to work.

You're using the economic idea of elasticity to say that a tax on oil will simply be passed along. Yes and no, they can be hit by some sort of income tax. Also while a certain amount oil use is fixed (hence the inelasticity), people have often decided to make shorter trips, less of them, and more efficient ones due to high gas prices so there is some wiggle room if you wanted to do a gas tax type thing where oil/gasoline is taxed by amount sold.

Also if you're worried about what Joe Citizen ends up paying it may be worth noticing that the prices of oil and gasoline seem to fluctuate to levels way higher than any gasoline tax. And when the most recent new price per barrel is passed along its going to really overshadow any gas tax rate by big margin.

Thus if you're worried about a tax rate (the funds from which could be pumped back into the state in other productive ways) vs the price of gas (which doesn't seem to be carried out in the same manner) a bit of tax can provide benefit for a negligible price.

And that isn't even toughing the whole environmental and future economic costs of fossil fuels debate.

I would like to see each one of you who want these people to pick up and leave with their families to actually tell them that to their faces.

Pro life, so instead of taxing the oil companies, what you meant was, I don't mind taxing gasoline and thus the people who buy gasoline, more.

Pro life, do you work for he government?

It would make sense if you did. Cause who else would say, "You know, my company wants your money. You won't directly benefit from giving my company your money, but my company wants to do more stuff, stuff that you won't benefit from, heck, alot of the stuff we want to do nobody except the people on the payroll benefit from. And, we are not really into just asking you permission to take your money, we're less askie, more takie."

To Buffy: I would have no problem telling anyone who is breaking the law that they should leave. In this case, the offenders [illegal aliens] are diverting substantial amounts of US Citizen tax dollars, future social security benefit dollars and other local + state dollars for their personal benefit, at a time that their oil-rich nation [Mexico] could care less abouth their well being.

We have the future needs and lives of the law-abiding [ourselves, our families, our children, our children's children, and our friends] to consider. And the future needs of illegal aliens to continue to soak up American resources is not our problem to continue to fund.

That is a Mexican Government problem!!!

I agree. Our government should work with Mexico to help stablize its economic system. The problem is not here. It would be impossible to secure every inch of the boarder. The real solution lies in Mexico.

I have a couple of things to say on this:
(1) It irritates me that Hispanic pro-immigration groups have tied themselves so closely to the border security debates. It is few and far between to find an article or news show that DOES NOT highlight the Hispanic immigration facts/concerns during pieces about border security. I truly believe that one of the most negative decisions that many Hispanic immigration groups have made was to associate the two ideas in American minds. It has turned a security debate in a racial issue. Personally, when it comes to border issues, my first concern is NOT regarding Mexican immigrants --its about terrorists. As long as our borders are not properly supervised, we are susceptible to individuals with negative purposes coming freely into our country. Since we have so many enemies right now, who have openly stated how much they would like to harm our nation, the idea of at least ONE of them coming into our country through our open borders is almost a reality. If you are an individual who associates Hispanic immigration with border security, please read my name. This isn't about me. This isn't about you. This is about our community and how we can keep it safe.

(2) Now, on the actual subject of immigration -- I also believe that Mexico would be well served to have a government that can more effectively meet the needs of the people who are flooding out of that nation. I think that true change will only come through the people. Unfortunately, I hear more about people from Mexico marching and protesting in the US, than I hear about it occurring in Mexico itself. Change will never come in Mexico, if we march in America. Those who truly love Mexico, and the people of Mexico will work to help the government there. On the other hand, perhaps the current government is well aware of what could happen if millions of disgruntled citizens suddenlty decided they wanted change. Perhaps that is why the Mexican government openly encourages immigration to the US -- perhaps they are exporting those with the nerve and passion to change the country. The more passionate people they can get to leave, the more likely they will be able to stay in power. If I were Mexican, I'd be outraged....outraged enough to change my nation.

I don't check the blog for a couple of days and missed a post directed to me.

Well MRL here it is, no I don't work for the government. On the other hand I have made use of government provided streets, sidewalks, water pipes, police, and eaten at places inspected by the government (which is sometimes one of the few things prodding them to make sure rats or whatnot isn't into the food).

Also I don't mind taxing oil companies and people who buy gasoline. Oil companies have been having a good day and can afford it-you can't have missed that because I know I pointed it out (would you ignore my point for the sake of making your comment sound better?)

And the tax on people who buy gasoline would be spent on stuff that helps the areas most of those people live in-thus helping those people (unlike the money simply paid to oil companies).

Also you left out how I commented that without taxes the people paying for gasoline would find themselves paying alot more than any tax simply because of the way the price of oil can change (usually upward). I didn't intend to predict this week but as the high price of oil gets passed downward to people getting gas I bet I'll be vindicated.

By the way, notice that the price of oil (and soon gas) went up without a major pumping station (or refinery) somewhere going down.

Yes companies do things I don't like plenty of time too-I've often wanted something only to find its made in China when I get to the store.

Also MRL, I'm betting you use the bit of road in front of your driveway that the government put there. I probably never will and (depending on where you live and when it was built) I may not have wanted the government to do that. But you got it didn't you?

solution4health: Well, since you have no problem going up to families and telling to their faces that they're breaking the law, you can start in a lot of places in Racine: Wal-Mart, Racine Produce, etc. I'd love to be a fly on your shoulder!

buffy: you obviously would prefer to seen your tax and social secuity dollars go to funf illegal aliens in America. The next time you face a tax increase and complain about, remember that you have chosen to fund the lifes of illegal aliens, OK?

I'm curious what FOE means... is it the obvious, as in opposite of friend or something else. Also, what does F.T. P. mean.

Really, this has been a pretty decent conversation - not to disrespectful even though there are a lot of differing opinions.

Sometimes, I like to dream of a Utopia where borders don't matter so much and we can get on with what does matter. I know it's impossible; so I'm glad that so many people are thinking about this problem and perhaps its solution.